submitted by /u/ian_wolter02 to r/magicTCG [link] [comments]
Sylvan library wants a word with you (and your wallet 😉 )
Of course. Check the cedh decklist database – lots of those decks run an average cmc of below 2. Even if I grab my more casual lists – my Kykar Equipment+Vehicle list, running some bigger equipments and vehicles even, bigger creatures and stuff, is running an average CMC of 1.85 over all 100 cards and an average of still 2.9 if I only look at non-lands. It is a list with several 6+ drops, so that pushes the non-land average up a bit, but 2.9 is very high. My Muldrotha list, running demons and other fun stuff, averages at 1.58 including lands and 2.48 excluding lands. And both are quite casual decks. Yeah, they actually do work and have a punch, but they are far from cedh. But I would count both of them more in the battlecruiser category. Even my Locust God list that runs a bunch of dragons / sphinxes and big wheel and twister spells runs an average 1.89 with lands included and 2.89 without lands.
My worst offender is my Golos Turns deck with 2.3 average cmc including lands and 3.8 excluding lands and that list is decidedly bad and “unfair”, as Golos cheats on mana. The deck is centered around Golos cheating and around extra turns with having all the mana available again and again and multiple “untap all lands” effects to reuse golos ability. But yeah, kill golos and it turns into a durdlefest and doesn’t do anything – and that’s why I keep my lists lean and fast.
My cedh Kenrith list runs an average of 1.34 including lands and 1.93 excluding range. And it doesn’t even run Ad Nauseam. But it easily could. My budget cedh Ukkima list runs an average of 1.26 including lands, 1.22 excluding Ad Nauseam (as you will never see AdNaus when playing AdNaus) but still including lands, and even excluding lands it runs 1.89. So I am guaranteed to gain a ton from an early AdNaus when my life total is still up.
You want your average CMC low and you want a curve that maxes out in the 2s or 3s and not the 4s, because you want to play your spells and you want to play multiple spells. Most stuff you play is cheap stuff, the bombs are just that – bombs you play late. And it is not a question wether you “can do that”. You have to, if you actually want to really play before T4. Sure, if you are in a “lets ramp until T4 and then smash big dumb creatures into each other” meta, that’s totally fine and all power to you, but even then I would probably lean more towards close to CMC 2 including lands and having just a small section of my deck dedicated to those big dumb creatures and most of the deck dedicated to cheap draw, cheap interaction, cheap mana dorks and cheap mana rocks.
Last example: I have a Syr Konrad list. Base don Commander’s Quarters budget Syr Konrad. That list got a bit updated, but mostly replacing similar cmc cards, just for more expensive cards that deliver more oomph. It runs an average CMC of 1.84 including lands and 2.84 excluding lands. So yeah, it is more heavy than most of my lists, but still – average below 2 including lands is a good place to be, or at least around 2. And an average excluding lands below 3 makes sure that you actually can play stuff on curve.
I was talking about budgeting down. I don’t want to remove Mox Diamond, I just have to when I want to reach budget 😉
Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Portent, Sleight of Hand, Impulse are the one I go for first
I am not saying it will be as good, I am just saying not playing all the duals will hurt you less than in lower-color decks. If you run a TnT list with only shocks, you still have multiple ways to guarantee double X pips being playable – you can fetch a UB and UG shock to guarantee your double U for example. In an Izzet deck, if you need double U guaranteed, it gets hard – you only have 4 fetches that can get you there, because you have to fetch basics. The more colors there are, if you run a perfect fetch list (if you can pay for that, I guess you can pay for at least the cheap duals also, but that’s another discussion 😉 ), you have many targets for color fixing due to the multitude of shocks and basics.
So for example if you look at a Kenrith Evolution list, you will see all the duals, sure. But you will see something else: there are many colors (the side colors) that only are covered by duals, the corresponding shocks are not run. So you can in those lists easily replace the duals with shocks without much detriment. Yes, you lose a bit more life, but life is a resource and Kenrith Evolution usually doesn’t play Ad Nauseam, so you can feed that resource into your mana. Replacing the Volcanic Island in a Kenrith Evolution list with Steam Vents will cost you probably 2 life, but your mana spread stays the same. Even with TnT lists, you will see several color pairs where they only run duals, you can (unless your list runs Ad Naus) replace them with shocks, too.
On the other hand, many 3 color decks run all three duals and all three shocks already. Replacing the friendly pairs with their check lands can work, but can throw you back one turn if you are unlucky, but there is no replacement for the enemy paris. So in a jeskai list, you often need the Volcanic Island to have the same color spread, or you have to rely on other pairs, but there aren’t that many in a 3 color list.
Hope that makes it clearer what I meant with that sentence. The more colors the list is, the less duplicates of pairs are needed and replacing with shocks is easy, and in case of friend pairs replacement with check lands can work, too. The less colors, the more reliant you are on the available duals and the harder it gets to avoid duals.
yep, but as others say, you run a whole ton of draw spells and selection spells, and you run a deck with an average cmc below 2 probably (I have seen some decks go up to 2.5, but those often run 30 lands and not 28 like the super sleek ones). And one thing people often ignore: if you add up the mana sources in a cedh deck, you probably end up somewhere around 45 up to 50. Because despite the super low land count, you will find all the efficient rocks and dorks and land enchantments and whatnot, that help you to give you the needed mana. I might even go as far as saying that many cedh decks run more mana sources than many casual decks.
If I budget down a cedh deck, if I take out a super efficient mana rock, I don’t throw in a bad rock or value spell, I thrown in a land at first – it is crucial to hit your mana. You can get away with low numbers of lands, if you bring in two mana sources (a land and some acceleration) every turn, because if you end up with 6 mana T3, you are probably much better suited than the casual deck that played a tapped worn powerstone at that turn. And some cedh lists have quite a bit more than just 6 mana T3.
BTW: that’s why Pyroclasm can be the worst thing happening to a cedh deck in the current meta, it wipes out the dork based mana. Of course a cedh deck not only has the fast mana, it also has the fast interaction, so don’t just assume slamming a T3 pyroclasm or Anger of the Gods will resolve 😉
First, you run all the blue cantrips. Second, you run all the mana positive rocks and cheapest ramp pieces (even the land enchantments for G, all the dorks). You run all the fetch lands in your colors and the duals and shocks. You keep your curve avera…
It heavily depends on the colors of your commander. If you are in Izzet colors for example, there is only one fetchable dual that is not an OG dual – so if your list runs double blue or double red pips, it will be hard to guarantee those pips being available. So running counterspell and doublecast in one deck without OG duals might make you more susceptible to those cards stranding in hand due to missing double pips in the early game. It is easier in friendly pairs, as you have the cycle Prairie Stream is in – they can stand in on a budget to guarantee you two fetchable untapped duals in many situations.
The more colors, the more you can skimp on OG duals, as you usually don’t run that many double-color-pip cards, or can compensate by fetching two shocklands to guarantee the double blue for Mana Drain or Counterspell. Unless you run Ad Nauseam or Treasenous Ogre, in that case run as many non-pain lands as possible, because you need your life for those.
So for example in my Lavinia Knowledge Pool deck, I skipped the Tundra, because I run my copy in another deck. It’s not a problem, I can run Praerie Stream easily and in most games don’t notice the difference (the deck runs Back to Basics, so I usually have the requirements met by the time I fetch it).
In my Jhoira deck on the other hand, I either run a proxy Volcanic Island or switch it over from the other deck it is in when people complain, because that list wants two fetchable duals early on, as I want to be able to play both red and blue interaction in the same turn, for example (or play a blood moon and protect it with a counter spell, or play Back to Basics and protect it with Red Elemental Blast).
I just assume that it is more the frustration as a developer talking in the case of Maro – he tries to address some design aspects, but the most popular format goes completely counter that design aspect. I can totally understand him – they built those cards to be treated as “either/or” and this silly community format just decides to treat them as “and”. I don’t think he fixates on some specific cards, it is probably just a general thing that rubs him wrong from his perspective on game design. I mean, the guy does for a living what Sheldon and gang do just for fun.
And I totally see his point – the hybrid cards and abilities are explicitely meant to be used in either one of the colors. It is what you do in mono-red goblins, playing Murderous Redcap without issues and without adding swamps. And I am totally not building a Grumgully goblin deck that would love to run Murderous Redcap instead of the rather lackluster Skuzzback Marauders as a goblin with persist 😉
well, that’s not just Maro, that is exactly what other formats to do to fill in missing pieces – if there is a hybrid card, you can easily run it in your mono color deck. It is just EDH that handles this part very differently and poses those problems.
Yeah, Ringleader is another one of the pile openers, as is Sensation Gorger for example, even – at least when Conspicuous Snoop will be there – Dark-Dweller Oracle can be seen as one, as it allows to rip the snoop of the top and play it, and comboing o…
It will go into Grumgully as another pile opener – my deck revolves around goblin recruiter piles with game winning combos, so he fits straight in. Even his cmc is fine by me, as that way I can grab him with Fierce Empath.
Did the same myself – my Kykar is just a battery that provides stored mana and drivers for vehicles and in my case also equipment. It is fun to play and usually plays out quite fair and people like a more normal Kykar deck that leaves play options for …
I think we have a winner here, turning the double mill guy into kinda mill-voltron archetype, taking out one player at a time. Kinda fun. The swallower and traumatize are two nice payoffs for double-mill and traumatize is easy to recur and find in blue.
I just decided to try the led+ub+Wheel Combo in my Jhoira, because ever since we lost Paradox engine, she is looking for something solid. She synergies well with the combo, helping to get to your payoffs quicker. And she still can run the sweet blood m…
Since it’s been about 2 months since Flash met its rightful demise, it’s time for another Metagame Project update.
This update sees some things that have moved up and down in popularity and success, some things that have stayed the same, and a couple things that had me really scratching my head.
And, as always, if you’d like to contribute game information to the project, please use this google form to do so:
double sleeving with dragonshield inners and dragonshield mattes here. The dragonshield mattes are superior in shuffling over the Ultra Pro stuff. I was on KMC before, but I like the dragonshields actually better nowadays (after they came up with the m…
well, it is just an Autumn’s Veil on legs, what could go wrong 😉 (at least they didn’t make it also draw a card and gave it flash)
That too. And [[Turnabout]] can turn into a solid draw spell if you don’t need it’s ritual capability. Or [[Gigadrowse]] still being a nice scaling tap-down-and-draw option. And well, the decision on what to tap for [[tangle wire]] get’s really “fun” with verity circle out 😉
Another nice and budget way to sometimes draw a ton of cards is [[Verity Circle]] – there are lots of situations where creatures want to tap without attacking (just think about the load of mana dorks in many pods) and you drawing off that can really help. It just doesn’t help against that 100-strong goblin army coming at you.
It is more a smashup clone. Where you also mix two decks together to get a ready to play deck.
A bit fiddly, because you have to note down what choice you made, and in EDH budget decks you might do that 5 times … but still, like them as budget fixing, despite the “comes into play tapped”. I would have loved them to have some kind of clause to come in untapped in specific situations, but well, you can’t have everything. What really is a bummer, though, is that they are not fetchable. Dang. Missed opportunity.
Modern was my poison of choice online for a little while, but since I prefer paper magic a lot, I then went with Pauper with a coworker. After a while we went into 1v1 Commander and from there got a full-on Commander pod going, tending towards higher p…
Pauper was my main format for a long time, until we got a commander group organized. It is really a fun format, but towards the end I was really longing for higher power cards, especially after they killed blue power cards. Gush was badass and gave Pau…